Skip to main content

tolkiens legendarium - Trolls: any evidence that they were mutilated Ents?


Trolls are seen to have participated in the events of the War of the Ring: the Troll in Moria, Trolls handling Grond, Trolls in the Battle at the Black Gate;



'A great cave-troll, I think, or more than one.'
Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring




Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it.
Lord of the Rings: Return of the King





But through them there came striding up, roaring like beasts, a great company of hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth.
Lord of the Rings: Return of the King



It's speculated that Trolls were mutilated Entwives, but that's not possible as Trolls were introduced way before the events of the War of the Ring: they were present in the First Age in the armies of Morgoth.


This doesn't mean that they aren't Ents tortured and mutilated by Morgoth in the First Age, though. Is there any evidence that supports this theory, and if not, what are the Trolls' origins?


Related: Did the Ent-Wives become trolls?



Answer





‘Hoom, hmm!
Treebeard



This question is similar to "What is the origin of Orcs", although a bit less debated, in the sense that it's not very clear and all a bit confusing.


I'm going to start with the following statement,


Tolkien never states that Trolls are a mockery of Ents. The only one to say so is Treebeard, and his statements are hardly the be all and end all of discussions.1


In the appendices to his Lord of the Rings, Tolkien states that Trolls were found long ago, a race likened to beasts rather than more sentient being such as man. Crediting Sauron with their evil and wits (noted in Christopher's notes below).


In Myths Transformed, Tolkien again suggests that Trolls were around before, but that they were tinkered with to turn them into the creatures of evil we're familiar with.



And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense? Or trolls? It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but were 'tinkered' with by Melkor.

Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed: VIII, "Orcs"



Christopher Tolkien's notes on the above



“In The Lord of the Rings Appendix F (I) it is said of Trolls:



In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn, and increasing their wits with wickedness.



In the long letter of September 1954 cited in note 1 he wrote of them:




I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence (though here I am of course only using elements of old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested. Of course... when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'.”



Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed: VIII, "Orcs", Note 3



Tolkien goes on to discuss trolls in Myths Transformed IX stating that they are similar to orcs in nature, but different physically, and they may have Been perversions of Human-types and therefore not Ents.



“The Elves would have classed the creatures called 'trolls' (in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) as Orcs - in character and origin - but they were larger and slower. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types.”
Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed: IX



It seems Tolkien himself was not certain of their origin. But one thing we can be certain of is that they were not mutilated Elves, and we can be almost certain they were not mockeries of the Ents.





1
Tolkien himself makes a note of this when asked about Trolls in Letter 153



Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.
Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien - Letter 153



Comments

Popular posts from this blog

futurama - How much time is lost in 'Time Keeps on Slippin''

In time Keeps on Slippin' , Farnsworth creates a basketball team which he matures by abusing Chronitons. This leads to time skipping forward by random, but ever increasing amounts. How much time was skipped in this way? Answer Unfortunately, I don't think a good estimate can be made for this, for two reasons: Many of the time skips move forward by an indeterminate amount of time. At one point, the Professor mentions localized regions of space skipping forward much more than others. We then see two young boys on the street below complaining about having to pay social security, only to suddenly become senior citizens and start complaining about wanting their money. Thus, each individual could have experienced a different amount of time skippage.

harry potter - How could Expelliarmus beat Avada Kedavra?

I want to be very careful about how I ask this question – I am not asking How did Voldemort die? [CLOSED] Below the text is the relevant passages from Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows if anyone wants to review them (I'm sorry for the amount of text). How did Expelliarmus beat Avada Kedavra and kill Voldemort? I feel the reason Harry's Expelliarmus overpowered Voldemort's Avada Kedavra curse has to do with who was master of the Elder Wand and how the Elder Wand works. I've always had trouble understanding fully how the Elder Wand works, though. How much did the fact that Voldemort never truly won or mastered the Elder Wand factor into how Expelliarmus reacted to Avada Kedavra and caused Avada Kedavra to rebound and kill Voldemort? An answer based in book canon would be especially welcome, but any canon source really is fine. Harry heard the high voice shriek as he, too, yelled his best hope to the heavens, pointing Draco’s wand: ‘ Avada Kedavra !’ ‘ Expelliarmus !...

Is there good canon evidence for the "Nightmare Matrix"?

On the Matrix wiki, there's an article about the Nightmare Matrix which says: The Nightmare Matrix was the second prototype Matrix, designed by The Architect after the massive failure of the Paradise Matrix in the hope that human minds would more readily accept an imperfect world with suffering. Unlike the first version, this Matrix instituted a basic cause-and-effect programming and forcibly made those connected to it accept the program. Vamp Prime, a possible remnant of the Nightmare Matrix. It also featured programs that resembled mythical evil creatures in various human mythologies such as vampires, werewolves, zombies, aliens, etc. It also failed, but many of the programs who were designed for it survived deletion in exile. The Merovingian and his wife, Persephone may have had their roots in this version of the Matrix. Upon its failure, the Merovingian started a smuggling ring of programs and information to provide a haven for exiles that would last for 6 cycles in the final ...

story identification - Anime with a boy hiring a creature from a stone, meets a man named Dante and starts a journey to collect crystals

I am from India, this anime or animated series (I can't remember this was made by the Japan or other countries) was aired between 2009 and 2012 probably in Jetix/Disney XD (but I'm not sure). This anime starts with a boy (the main character, I forgot his name) who find a stone (or crystal like thing) in his dad's property, his dad was missing that time. Some day he accidentally hire a creature/monster from that stone. Other day some creature attack him and he was saved by his creature and the story begins. In his journey to solve the mystery he meets a middle aged man 'Dante' (probably that was the name; this is the only character name I can remember). He had also some stone. After that they meet with one girl and a women (one of the girls is same age with the main boy character and probably will become his partner as the story goes on). Another women probably Dante's partner. Four of them started their journey to collect all the stone/crystal. They are collecti...