Skip to main content

tolkiens legendarium - Can the Valar or Maiar die?


In "The Lord of the Rings" and the "The Silmarillion" some Maiar (Sauron, several Balrogs, Saruman) are defeated. But did these Maiar actually die and if they did, do they go to Halls of Mandos or what happens to them? Since Morgoth was not actually killed by the Valar after the War of Wrath, I assume that it might be impossible to kill one of the Valar, but I'm not sure whether the same thing is true for the lesser Ainur.



Answer



That depends on what you mean by "die." I'll start with the assumption that Elves and Humans are considered to die. I would define that as their soul being severed from their physical body and that they can no longer independently assume a physical form. You will recall that Elves' souls go to the Halls of Mandos and Humans' out of the World to join Iluvatar.


That being established, let's review what happens to the Vala and Maia we read about. Their physical bodies can obviously be destroyed. The question then is "what happens to their soul?" I think it's clear that the Valar themselves can't be "killed" in the sense that when their physical form is destroyed they can just stay in their natural, non-corporeal form or appear in another form as they choose; this is why in order to defeat Morgoth once and for all the Valar had to "cast him into the void." It's not entirely clear what that means, but I don't think it's in any sense "death," just a sort of imprisonment or exile. When Sauron's first body was destroyed, he was able to create another body by himself, though he couldn't make it as fair as the first, which is why he took the rather more fitting form seen in the movies. As I recall, the Maiar, like the Valar, have "bodies" that are only a physical projection of their real selves. Gandalf and the other Istari are Maiar, but it seems rather less powerful than Sauron, and when Gandalf "died" in the fight with the balrog (another Maia), Eru had to intervene to reincarnate him (and the Balrog didn't come back at all), so I think there must be some sort of threshold of either power or will to continue to inhabit Middle-earth (probably a combination) that determines whether their spirit continues as if nothing happened.



So, from this definition and what we know about the Ainur whose bodies were destroyed, I think there is a threshold combining their power and will to live that determines whether they can create a new body for themselves.


As far as Sauron goes, especially his destruction in the war of the ring, I think in the end he put too much of his power into the One Ring, and when it was destroyed, that part of his power was destroyed along with it (similar to a horcrux in HP, though more power than soul), leaving him without enough power to continue to inhabit Middle-earth, create a new body, etc.


Some relevant passages


About the forging of The Ring:



but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others... And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring.



Sauron's first body was destroyed in the rending of Middle Earth, when the Valar removed Valinor from the world and destroyed Numenor:



The world was broken, and the land was swallowed up, and the seas rose over it, and Sauron himself went down into the abyss. But his spirit arose and fled back on a dark wind to Middle-earth, seeking a home.




And his creation of a new body:



There [Mordor] now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor.



Sauron's defeat:



But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.



When he returns again, as the sorcerer of Dol Guldur, it is only said that he "took shape."



When the ring was destroyed:



Then Sauron failed, and he was utterly vanquished and passed away like a shadow of malice



Comments

Popular posts from this blog

futurama - How much time is lost in 'Time Keeps on Slippin''

In time Keeps on Slippin' , Farnsworth creates a basketball team which he matures by abusing Chronitons. This leads to time skipping forward by random, but ever increasing amounts. How much time was skipped in this way? Answer Unfortunately, I don't think a good estimate can be made for this, for two reasons: Many of the time skips move forward by an indeterminate amount of time. At one point, the Professor mentions localized regions of space skipping forward much more than others. We then see two young boys on the street below complaining about having to pay social security, only to suddenly become senior citizens and start complaining about wanting their money. Thus, each individual could have experienced a different amount of time skippage.

harry potter - How could Expelliarmus beat Avada Kedavra?

I want to be very careful about how I ask this question – I am not asking How did Voldemort die? [CLOSED] Below the text is the relevant passages from Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows if anyone wants to review them (I'm sorry for the amount of text). How did Expelliarmus beat Avada Kedavra and kill Voldemort? I feel the reason Harry's Expelliarmus overpowered Voldemort's Avada Kedavra curse has to do with who was master of the Elder Wand and how the Elder Wand works. I've always had trouble understanding fully how the Elder Wand works, though. How much did the fact that Voldemort never truly won or mastered the Elder Wand factor into how Expelliarmus reacted to Avada Kedavra and caused Avada Kedavra to rebound and kill Voldemort? An answer based in book canon would be especially welcome, but any canon source really is fine. Harry heard the high voice shriek as he, too, yelled his best hope to the heavens, pointing Draco’s wand: ‘ Avada Kedavra !’ ‘ Expelliarmus !...

Is there good canon evidence for the "Nightmare Matrix"?

On the Matrix wiki, there's an article about the Nightmare Matrix which says: The Nightmare Matrix was the second prototype Matrix, designed by The Architect after the massive failure of the Paradise Matrix in the hope that human minds would more readily accept an imperfect world with suffering. Unlike the first version, this Matrix instituted a basic cause-and-effect programming and forcibly made those connected to it accept the program. Vamp Prime, a possible remnant of the Nightmare Matrix. It also featured programs that resembled mythical evil creatures in various human mythologies such as vampires, werewolves, zombies, aliens, etc. It also failed, but many of the programs who were designed for it survived deletion in exile. The Merovingian and his wife, Persephone may have had their roots in this version of the Matrix. Upon its failure, the Merovingian started a smuggling ring of programs and information to provide a haven for exiles that would last for 6 cycles in the final ...

story identification - Anime with a boy hiring a creature from a stone, meets a man named Dante and starts a journey to collect crystals

I am from India, this anime or animated series (I can't remember this was made by the Japan or other countries) was aired between 2009 and 2012 probably in Jetix/Disney XD (but I'm not sure). This anime starts with a boy (the main character, I forgot his name) who find a stone (or crystal like thing) in his dad's property, his dad was missing that time. Some day he accidentally hire a creature/monster from that stone. Other day some creature attack him and he was saved by his creature and the story begins. In his journey to solve the mystery he meets a middle aged man 'Dante' (probably that was the name; this is the only character name I can remember). He had also some stone. After that they meet with one girl and a women (one of the girls is same age with the main boy character and probably will become his partner as the story goes on). Another women probably Dante's partner. Four of them started their journey to collect all the stone/crystal. They are collecti...