Skip to main content

game of thrones - Assume R+L=J is true. How can that ever be proven in the eyes of Westeros?




So let's assume that the relatively ambiguous Tower of Joy scene in season 6 confirms that Jon is indeed



Lyanna Stark's child, sired by Rhaegar Targaryan.



In that case, considering the current situation in Westeros as of season 7 (or as of book 5 + released chapters of book 6), how does this get proven in the eyes of the lords, ladies, and commoners of Westeros?


It feels like an impossible claim to prove given that Eddard Stark is dead, Howland Reed seems to have vanished off the face of Planetos, and anyone else who was alive at the time with that knowledge appears to be dead and gone. EVEN IF Howland Reed manages to crawl out of the woodwork to corroborate Bran/3-eyed Raven's claim (assuming he even makes that claim) about Jon's true heritage, we're still just talking about the word of two relatively unknown (outside of the North) Westerosi noblemen.


The only way I can see of "proving" anything is if Jon ends up riding a dragon. But even then, would that, in addition to the theoretical claims of Howland Reed and Bran Stark be enough to prove that Jon Snow is actually Jon Targaryan (assuming R and L actually got married, and assuming that marriage is even recognized in the eyes of Westeros since polygamy is very much looked down upon...) ?


I am looking for theories or speculation based on the books, the TV show or historical events that end up with the people of Westeros generally accepting that Jon Snow is either:





  1. Still a bastard of different heritage, or




  2. A legitimate Targaryan, and trueborn heir of Rhaegar Targaryan.





Edit to explain first dupe:


I am not asking who knows, I am asking: how do you prove it in the eyes of everyone in the 7 kingdoms?




Edit based on S7E05:


In the scene where Sam decides he's had it with the silly Citadel, Gilly reads an old record of Rhaegar Targaryan receiving an annulment of his marriage to Elia Martell, and of his remarriage to... Lyanna Stark?


Assuming this is true, and assuming Jon Snow is indeed their offspring, then he is indeed a true-born Targaryan. Now as to how to prove it, obviously this record would come in handy when attempting to do so...



Edit to explain second dupe:


This is very similar to Is there any tangible proof of Jon Snow's lineage?. However, I am asking how it would be proved, either with tangible evidence or by proclamation or by some other strategy I hadn't thought of, in the eyes of Westeros. In other words, with proof, or no proof, how are the people (nobles+commoners) of Westeros to be convinced of this truth? I accept that this question is related, and should certainly be linked, but I don't think it is a duplicate.



Answer



As of Season 7, Episode 5, Eastwatch the ways of being proven are adding up (as you have duly noted yourself).




  1. Howland Reed, being present at the Tower of Joy has first account of what transpired. The proof is that he is well respected noble lord and has no reason to lie about such things as he was on the opposing side of the Targaryen's during the rebellion.

  2. Brandon Stark has "green-seer" vision in which he has ascertained this information. The proof is a bit harder here as magic is going to be looked on with a certain degree of skepticism. However, if Bran can prove he knows other things (e.g. "Chaos is a ladder) that he would no other way of knowing, people may tend to believe him.

  3. High Septon Maynard issued an annulment of Prince Rhaegar's marriage. While we do not 100% know, yet, that this means he married Lyanna Stark, all arrows point in the right direction. This is crucial as it wasn't just any old Septon, but The High Septon! This lends the religious authority to have Jon be a legitimate Targaryen. Even though the Sept of Baelor was destroyed, the Faith of the Seven is still the dominate religion in Westeros. Cersei may not want to hear it, but many lords and common folk will take the record seriously.

  4. Jon being "dragon sensitive". I think we saw some this in S7E5 as well, when Daenerys returns to Dragonstone and Jon reaches out to Drogon. This is more speculative than the rest at this point, but seems like it will pan out. It is generally accepted that you need the blood of Old Valyria (i.e. Targaryen) to have this affinity with dragons. Update for S8E1.... Jon boi being flying now.


All of this combined would likely convince enough of the lords of Westeros to ultimately believe in Jon's claim... and if not Jon's side has dragons...


Comments

Post a Comment

Popular posts from this blog

harry potter - Do the Kwikspell courses work?

In Harry Potter we are introduced to Kwikspell course in The Chamber of Secrets (and never hear about it again). We see Filch taking courses, presumably by mail. The descriptions of Kwikspell make me think it is for people who are weak in magic (kind of like how Neville was supposed to be when he was younger), but had magic in them nonetheless. However, Ron's comments later in the chapter make it sound like it is mainly for Squibs to learn magic. However, it is strongly implied through out all the books that Squibs are essentially Muggles, and will never be able to do magic. How then is a Kwikspell course supposed to work? Do we have any information to know if it works at all? Is it a scam? An answer from any level of canon is welcome. Answer Kwikspell courses are (probably) useful to some wizards, but not to squibs. The Kwikspell course literature comes with two testimonials. Madam Z. Nettles of Topsham writes: ‘I had no memory for incantations and my potions were a family joke...
Post a Comment
Read more

futurama - How much time is lost in 'Time Keeps on Slippin''

In time Keeps on Slippin' , Farnsworth creates a basketball team which he matures by abusing Chronitons. This leads to time skipping forward by random, but ever increasing amounts. How much time was skipped in this way? Answer Unfortunately, I don't think a good estimate can be made for this, for two reasons: Many of the time skips move forward by an indeterminate amount of time. At one point, the Professor mentions localized regions of space skipping forward much more than others. We then see two young boys on the street below complaining about having to pay social security, only to suddenly become senior citizens and start complaining about wanting their money. Thus, each individual could have experienced a different amount of time skippage.
Post a Comment
Read more

star wars - What "exactly" happens when someone turns to the Dark Side?

When I saw the original Star Wars saga as a kid, the concept of the Dark Side imprinted in me was quite simple. You did a bad thing, so you're a bad person so you go to the Dark Side and keep doing bad things. Now, obviously this doesn't hold true in reality. In my mind it is perfectly reasonable for Luke to kill the Emperor and Vader and then just flee the Death Star and rejoin the Alliance. After all they are at war, those are enemy officers that have captured him and are taunting him by threatening with death of all loved ones and the whole operation was intended to kill the Emperor anyway. The same would hold true for Anakin. He could have killed Mace Windu to save the Chancellor and Padme but that doesn't mean he's going to then go mad and kill all Jedis including children. It doesn't add up from a merely psychological point of view. He had a set of objectives and that made him want to keep the Chancellor alive (quite valid by the way, Mace Windu is quite clums...
Post a Comment
Read more

Was the "pure soul" of Harry's what had really hurt Voldemort?

In the Order of the Phoenix, Voldemort possesses Harry, and it hurts. Greatly. I think that Dumbledore explained that it was because Voldemort's rotten soul was incapable of assimilating Harry's pure soul, that Voldemort didn't understand the love and friendship etc that Harry has in his heart. But, I think it was a lie. Remember that in Deathly Hallows, while looking for information regarding Horcruxes, it is discovered that it is in fact possible to merge a soul fragment back, but that the process was extremely painful. Now then, if Voldemort tried to possess Harry, and Harry had a fragment of Voldemort's soul, I think that it could have been the true cause of Voldemort's pain: the fact of having his soul so close of another fragment. I think that Dumbledore knew that fact, but had to lie to Harry because it was inappropriate to let him know that he had one of Voldemort's soul fragments at the moment. Is that right? Or was it truly the pure soul of Harry's...
Post a Comment
Read more